There was a situation I observed where a horse didn't want to go to the mounting block. The horse, who is a previously abused nervously(?) backed up, shied, danced around, and refused to stand quietly alongside the block. The trainer who was handling this horse took a crop and whacked the horse on the hindquarters. The horse kicked out, the trainer hit her, she kicked again, trainer hit again, and so on. Finally, the horse kicked the trainer's hand that was holding the crop. One of the trainer's fingers started slightly bleeding, and the crop broke. Finally, the horse stood next to the mounting block, but she was uneasy for the whole lesson, and she gave the rider trouble. I was slightly unnered by this, but I understand that I may be overreacting. There are two ways to look at this: 1)The trainer was enforcing clear punishment for bad behavior- one hit for each kick. 2)The situation was turning into a vicious circle- every time the trainer hit this formerly abused horse, she got even more scared and kicked out, and trainer hit her as punishment, and she got scared and shied and kicked again, and was punished by being hit....
So what do you guys think?
Full Version: Clear Punishment or Vicious Circle?
One thing is for sure, this doesn't belong in 3 categories.
I wasn't there to see it so all I can offer is this: The minute you are correcting a horse in anger, it does more harm than good, imo. I am not trying to be a sissy or animal rights activist but "training" anybody to do anything means you need to be in control of yourself in order to teach the other individual/animal/whatever what the expectations are. You deal out rewards and punishments in a thoughtful and controlled manner in order to get results. If you have lost control of yourself and are just expressing your anger or frustration, it isn't really training anymore.
If I feel myself getting upset, I stop whatever I am doing and go back to something easier or I'll hand it off to somebody else. There is no shame in that.
If I feel myself getting upset, I stop whatever I am doing and go back to something easier or I'll hand it off to somebody else. There is no shame in that.
*shakes head*
Labsluver, the trainer was my trainer, the crop was my crop, the horse is a horse I'll be riding a lot from now on,and the rider was me so you must understand my concern.
I agree with Alexa. Anytime you have a fearful animal you already have a bigger problem than the one you want to fix. Fear clouds communication. The horse was afraid and by being forced into something she was afraid of in such an aggressive manner probably didn't teach her to be brave, it just confused her enough until you got what was needed at the moment. It does not mean she learned anything and that she will willingly approach the mounting block next time. In fact, next time she may anticipate the fear and the resulting punishment and decide she won't come even 20 feet near the thing. And she'll probably receive more of the same treatment - not a good situation.
QUOTE (allblue @ Jul 18 2009, 11:09 PM) 
Labsluver, the trainer was my trainer, the crop was my crop, the horse is a horse I'll be riding a lot from now on,and the rider was me so you must understand my concern.
Not sure why you're responding to me when all I said was that this doesn't belong in three categories?
I think the issue has now been compounded.
On top of what Alexa has said:
The initial issue was the mounting block, now compounded by mounting block = worry, worry = a hiding(or smack). So next time the horse comes to the mounting block the horse will worry because of a) the block and b) he got a hiding the last time it was there - so why would he want to go there again?
Why didn't you just mount from the ground or get a leg up? And work on the mounting block afterwards - wouldn't have caused the rider problems during the lesson then. A horse after being worked may have been more open to the idea of going to the mounting block and maybe that little bit tired so gives in a tad easier.
I'm not saying smacking for the disobedience is wrong, just that smacking for that behaviour in that instance may not have been the best course of action for this horse.
My last horse would NEVER walk to the block - so we backed him up to it everytime instead - saved a whole lot of worry and hassel as well as energy!
IMO I also think that once a horse starts kicking out at the crop or rope or whatever someone is trying to get them to do something with- its not working because the horse has gone from - oops better try do something here to get away from it - to "bitch you hurt me I'm going to hurt you".
On top of what Alexa has said:
The initial issue was the mounting block, now compounded by mounting block = worry, worry = a hiding(or smack). So next time the horse comes to the mounting block the horse will worry because of a) the block and b) he got a hiding the last time it was there - so why would he want to go there again?
Why didn't you just mount from the ground or get a leg up? And work on the mounting block afterwards - wouldn't have caused the rider problems during the lesson then. A horse after being worked may have been more open to the idea of going to the mounting block and maybe that little bit tired so gives in a tad easier.
I'm not saying smacking for the disobedience is wrong, just that smacking for that behaviour in that instance may not have been the best course of action for this horse.
My last horse would NEVER walk to the block - so we backed him up to it everytime instead - saved a whole lot of worry and hassel as well as energy!
IMO I also think that once a horse starts kicking out at the crop or rope or whatever someone is trying to get them to do something with- its not working because the horse has gone from - oops better try do something here to get away from it - to "bitch you hurt me I'm going to hurt you".
Thanks, everyone. I didn't mount from the ground or get a leg up because my trainer was insistent on bending the horse to her will. She was like, "Gimme the crop".
But wouldn't the horse think she could get away with shying if you just mounted from the ground or got a leg up? I do like the idea of backing her up to the mounting block, or working with her afterwards with the mounting block, though.
I'm switching trainers after tomorrow. It's not just this incident, but she's just a generally an insensitive, harsh person all around. I'm a bit of a romantic, and I like the idea of being the girl who finally opens her up and makes her human again, and I've often thought that behind that hard exterior there's a heart, but I just have to admit to myself that I'm not here to help solve other peoples' problems, especially to the detriment of myself, my own riding, and the horses.
But wouldn't the horse think she could get away with shying if you just mounted from the ground or got a leg up? I do like the idea of backing her up to the mounting block, or working with her afterwards with the mounting block, though.
I'm switching trainers after tomorrow. It's not just this incident, but she's just a generally an insensitive, harsh person all around. I'm a bit of a romantic, and I like the idea of being the girl who finally opens her up and makes her human again, and I've often thought that behind that hard exterior there's a heart, but I just have to admit to myself that I'm not here to help solve other peoples' problems, especially to the detriment of myself, my own riding, and the horses.
So I have seen this had not been talked about for a while but I have to add to that what I saw today. I was out at a local show earning my community service hours by planting flowers at the ring side. Now as I was planting I watched a couple of rounds and noticed a small pony in the hunters being bad. It actually stopped at the first fence. Now this girl’s overweight trainer jumps on its back in anger and brings a dressage whip with him to school. For about 3 hours (literally) he galloped this thing around whipping it over fences about 3’6, when it could visibly only do a lot less. Now he got a stern talking to. However, I know that later in the day it would go on to do a limit warm up and stop and this process was repeated. Now I ask why was he allowed near this pony by the owners? It nearly died from shock the first time and again later. Tsk, Tsk, when I feel myself getting irritated I get off and hack another horse till I feel ready to tackle things properly.
I'm only replying to this because I hadn't really read it before, and I guess I feel a little differently than other posters.
It sounds like there are two issues here: being afraid of the mounting block, and not responding appropriately to corrections (ie kicking out when hit). In my mind, they must be addressed separately, and the more dangerous one (kicking) should always be worked through first. When the mare began kicking out in response to a hit, the objective of the session became very different. The mounting block is no longer the issue, general respect to me and my aids is. In my mind, a reaction like that is completely and utterly unacceptable, and I will continue to correct the behavior until I get the response I want. Does this mean I will continue hitting the horse harder and harder until one of us is injured? No, probably not. But it doesn't mean I'm going to change the subject entirely, or give the horse any impression that kicking at me is an okay response. Especially a mare, they are too damn smart and sassy to get away with that business. Like Alexa said, this isn't something that should be done if you are feeling angry, impatient, or afraid. Then there is no solution. It sounds like the trainer overcorrected the horse, and that the initial hit might not have been the right move. Does it mean it's okay that horse kicked out? No. And it needs to be made clear to the horse that it wasn't okay in some shape or form.
I'm only speaking so forcefully extensively on this because I own a horse that used to bronc every time I hit him with a bat. Does this mean I don't hit him anymore? I hit him all the f'ing time. He will get hit every time he tries to unload me, until he learns that the bat means go forward, engage, not launch or kick out. But, I also use my leg and spur to help make the point, and the moment he does it right, he gets oodles of praise and we move on with our lives. It gets ugly sometimes, but I don't get mad and he's certainly never been beaten 'til he bled.
Doing something like mounting from the ground or getting a leg up is avoiding the issue, and not that helpful in the long run. There are ways to help a horse become comfortable with mounting issues, and using a whip is not necessarily a bad idea, the idea is that it's just making your arm longer to reach farther without you having to get off of the block. From the sounds of it, your trainer wasn't able to reach common ground with the horse, and not having seen the incident I can't say whether or not I agree with her methods. The point is that I won't tolerate avoiding issues or allowing horses to be dangerous because I don't want them to be uncomfortable or afraid. My well-being takes priority!
It sounds like there are two issues here: being afraid of the mounting block, and not responding appropriately to corrections (ie kicking out when hit). In my mind, they must be addressed separately, and the more dangerous one (kicking) should always be worked through first. When the mare began kicking out in response to a hit, the objective of the session became very different. The mounting block is no longer the issue, general respect to me and my aids is. In my mind, a reaction like that is completely and utterly unacceptable, and I will continue to correct the behavior until I get the response I want. Does this mean I will continue hitting the horse harder and harder until one of us is injured? No, probably not. But it doesn't mean I'm going to change the subject entirely, or give the horse any impression that kicking at me is an okay response. Especially a mare, they are too damn smart and sassy to get away with that business. Like Alexa said, this isn't something that should be done if you are feeling angry, impatient, or afraid. Then there is no solution. It sounds like the trainer overcorrected the horse, and that the initial hit might not have been the right move. Does it mean it's okay that horse kicked out? No. And it needs to be made clear to the horse that it wasn't okay in some shape or form.
I'm only speaking so forcefully extensively on this because I own a horse that used to bronc every time I hit him with a bat. Does this mean I don't hit him anymore? I hit him all the f'ing time. He will get hit every time he tries to unload me, until he learns that the bat means go forward, engage, not launch or kick out. But, I also use my leg and spur to help make the point, and the moment he does it right, he gets oodles of praise and we move on with our lives. It gets ugly sometimes, but I don't get mad and he's certainly never been beaten 'til he bled.
Doing something like mounting from the ground or getting a leg up is avoiding the issue, and not that helpful in the long run. There are ways to help a horse become comfortable with mounting issues, and using a whip is not necessarily a bad idea, the idea is that it's just making your arm longer to reach farther without you having to get off of the block. From the sounds of it, your trainer wasn't able to reach common ground with the horse, and not having seen the incident I can't say whether or not I agree with her methods. The point is that I won't tolerate avoiding issues or allowing horses to be dangerous because I don't want them to be uncomfortable or afraid. My well-being takes priority!
I do get your point about correcting a dangerous situation.
However with regards to a leg up/mounting from the ground I think it is a smart idea. Firstly because this may be the horse’s only issue and it does not really matter if you cannot use a mounting block (you certainly will not need it in the ring at any time). This is why I feel that issue could be avoided and it not matter at all in the long run.
But if it were something like not going over yellow jumps or bucking (in your case) I'm 100 percent with you, if it impacts the time in the ring it should be handled but a beating is probably not the best with an abused horse.
Sometimes you need to pick your battles before you engage in correction to see if it needs to be done in that way. Sometimes a treat when things are done good will be a better method, esp. for an abused horse, and this is what trainers often forget when they set out to muscle through a problem, that with care could be corrected easily.
However with regards to a leg up/mounting from the ground I think it is a smart idea. Firstly because this may be the horse’s only issue and it does not really matter if you cannot use a mounting block (you certainly will not need it in the ring at any time). This is why I feel that issue could be avoided and it not matter at all in the long run.
But if it were something like not going over yellow jumps or bucking (in your case) I'm 100 percent with you, if it impacts the time in the ring it should be handled but a beating is probably not the best with an abused horse.
Sometimes you need to pick your battles before you engage in correction to see if it needs to be done in that way. Sometimes a treat when things are done good will be a better method, esp. for an abused horse, and this is what trainers often forget when they set out to muscle through a problem, that with care could be corrected easily.
I do get your point about correcting a dangerous situation.
However with regards to a leg up/mounting from the ground I think it is a smart idea. Firstly because this may be the horse’s only issue and it does not really matter if you cannot use a mounting block (you certainly will not need it in the ring at any time). This is why I feel that issue could be avoided and it not matter at all in the long run.
But if it were something like not going over yellow jumps or bucking (in your case) I'm 100 percent with you, if it impacts the time in the ring it should be handled but a beating is probably not the best with an abused horse.
Sometimes you need to pick your battles before you engage in correction to see if it needs to be done in that way. Sometimes a treat when things are done good will be a better method, esp. for an abused horse, and this is what trainers often forget when they set out to muscle through a problem, that with care could be corrected easily.
However with regards to a leg up/mounting from the ground I think it is a smart idea. Firstly because this may be the horse’s only issue and it does not really matter if you cannot use a mounting block (you certainly will not need it in the ring at any time). This is why I feel that issue could be avoided and it not matter at all in the long run.
But if it were something like not going over yellow jumps or bucking (in your case) I'm 100 percent with you, if it impacts the time in the ring it should be handled but a beating is probably not the best with an abused horse.
Sometimes you need to pick your battles before you engage in correction to see if it needs to be done in that way. Sometimes a treat when things are done good will be a better method, esp. for an abused horse, and this is what trainers often forget when they set out to muscle through a problem, that with care could be corrected easily.
I have a horse with mounting issues as well (I have lots of issues) his is due to a physical limitation. I do modify my mounting routine to make him comfortable, but that doesn't mean he gets to be a prick, and it doesn't mean I have to drag someone out to help me every day. When you deal with horses that have insecurities, you have to be just as firm with them, because they tend to get even more anxious when they do not know who is in charge.
The mare clearly has more than one issue if she's kicking out at humans viciously and repeatedly. Abuse is unfortunate, and by all means, you cannot muscle an abused mare into anything, but something basic like standing at a mounting block isn't something to just shrug and say, oh well, to. Every ride you have different objectives, and there may be some days when it is simpler to just get a leg or hop on from the ground, but I would not let a mounting issue like that go and simply never bother with a block. For one, I don't have any friends to give me a leg, and two, I am too lazy to get on from the ground all the time. Treats are great, but they aren't going to train the horse. Clear, reasonable and calm expectations will.
The mare clearly has more than one issue if she's kicking out at humans viciously and repeatedly. Abuse is unfortunate, and by all means, you cannot muscle an abused mare into anything, but something basic like standing at a mounting block isn't something to just shrug and say, oh well, to. Every ride you have different objectives, and there may be some days when it is simpler to just get a leg or hop on from the ground, but I would not let a mounting issue like that go and simply never bother with a block. For one, I don't have any friends to give me a leg, and two, I am too lazy to get on from the ground all the time. Treats are great, but they aren't going to train the horse. Clear, reasonable and calm expectations will.
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